tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post1839019010522445770..comments2023-08-19T01:00:21.479-07:00Comments on Love. Learning. Liberty.: Bill Gothard has negativley affected my life part 2shadowspringhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-30812941169960013382011-07-30T16:50:03.366-07:002011-07-30T16:50:03.366-07:00Shadowspring, are you aware of www.RecoveringGrace...Shadowspring, are you aware of www.RecoveringGrace.org? May we have permission to include your story on the website? <br /><br />Thank you for sharing. -JayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-35959135062736698862011-03-19T13:35:25.634-07:002011-03-19T13:35:25.634-07:00I also as a young adult..new husband etc..new chri...I also as a young adult..new husband etc..new christian attended Bill Gothard seminor's. I was so exicted over my newly found Lord and Savior! I wanted to serve Him and to be pleasing to Him. I came away from Gothard' teaching feeling oppressed while everyone around me were refreshed and excited at his teaching. It left me bewildered and drained. I tried to live Gothard's teaching' and failed miserably. As a result i fell into deep depression and sin.My christian friend's who thrived with the teaching of Gothard rebuked me..when they came to my house they continually pointed thing's out.i felt very condemned and unworthy. I also thought of sucide a i beleived i lost my salvation and was hopeless. But Jesus Christ is FAITHFUL even when we are not!And continued to work in my life and i can now say and beleive 'that for by grace am i saved through faith in Christ Jesus..not of works lest any man should boast..it is a gift of God. What God finally got through to me is to live a holy life means a looking unto Him..continually and simply taking Him at His word and His promises.One thing i noticed about those who went on with Bill Gothard is there is a spiritural pride and arrogance..it's as if they are clothed in this and i don't see Christ but see this 'clothing'.Gothard's defination of grace is very disturbing..it is not biblical grace but a grace that one 'earn's. And his defination of faith is also disturbing.faith is NOT visualizing what God intends to do with us (this is a occultic techique) faith is again simply taking God at His word. I am wondering if Gothard is into the new world order. I know he is in the ecumenical movement which is bringing in a one world religion. Is he using his platform to help this along? I just don't know but the thing's he is involved in like reading the bible to unborn children is a dangerous teaching..it would be a form of brain washing. And the fact that he states one can be without Christ and still profit from his teaching is heretical. He has taken his teaching's as methods to be this and that. It is not principles that make us holy it is the Holy spirit that conforms us to the image of Jesus according to God's word's. Jesus said in the last days there will be serious deception that if possible even the very elect could be decieved. I think we are in those last days where great deception has crept into our churches to the point we may have to start gathering in homes in small groups. And throw out all the so called 'christian books in how to live for Christ regardless of how good they seem and stick with the bible only.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-76197441888135268772010-12-12T06:17:09.273-08:002010-12-12T06:17:09.273-08:00Two blogs written by adult escapees who grew up AT...Two blogs written by adult escapees who grew up ATI:<br /><br />http://xatigirl.wordpress.com/<br /><br />http://razingruth.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I'm sure there are more, but going back to the beginning of these blogs and giving them a read will give one a great view of what it is like growing up a woman in an ATI household. It is a far cry from the gracious love-filled world Jesus calls us to live in his great command, "love one another as I have loved you".shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-1786667521237916602010-12-12T06:12:36.470-08:002010-12-12T06:12:36.470-08:00Of course all of this is wrapped up in the Bible, ...Of course all of this is wrapped up in the Bible, though the great portion of it is pulled out of context to make any particular pet control doctrine Billy-boy wants to make that day. <br /><br />When teens have trouble with this highly controlling dysfunctional religious cult life, they are sent off to other ATI families to work for free and/or sent to "intern" (work for free) at Gothard's business ventures. If the family-only atmosphere was not enough to keep the growing adults conformed to the cult behaviors/lifestyle, then outside pressure of the greater cult organization is brought to bear.<br /><br />As you read Josiah David's statements, keep all this in mine. Josiah David has not experienced anything near a normal life. He likely only associates with non-ATI people on the most superficial basis. He may possibly work with regular citizens (but it's unlikely) but he will not make close friends with anyone outside the cult. <br /><br />Since people swindled into cults are still normal human people, it is likely that along with all this cult craziness there is a good does of family togetherness and love. Since Josiah David was never allowed to know anyone outside the cult, he thinks this love is something that only his cult family has together. He has never seen Jewish or atheist or Hindu or other "worldly" people in loving family relationships so he believes the cult line that this is a special quality of Gothardites.<br /><br />Gothardites believe that they are the only real Christians, and that all the rest of us are "lukewarm" at best. This is a huge insult and implies that we are dangerous people, people who might even wind up being rejected by God himself. They base this on a misreading of the early chapters of Revelation, where Jesus warns the church at Laodecia (sp?) of letting their self-satisfied lives make them think they were better spiritually than those "other" people out there- a common malady afflicting Gothardites who are depending on their own godliness (which they feel is way superior to the average Christians) to earn them God's stamp of approval.<br /><br />That's why he implies that I have no peace in my life, can't possibly truly know Jesus, blah blah blah. Just thought those reading who may possibly not be well acquainted with Gothard deserved to know more, what with a cult member trolling here now.<br /><br />Peace and good will, SSshadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-46711331009327228592010-12-12T06:12:28.526-08:002010-12-12T06:12:28.526-08:00For all other readers, it is obvious Josiah David ...For all other readers, it is obvious Josiah David is still deeply involved in Mr. Gothard's cult. I have heard such people referred to as Gothardites by outsiders. Mr. Gothard has a tiered system (like all cults) that works like this:<br /><br />You have to attend the Basic seminar before you can buy any of his materials. His books, etc. are only available at his seminars. They have to be properly explained before the average person could get anything out of them, dontcha know? (i.e. suitably indoctrinated)<br /><br />Then AFTER you complete the Basic seminar there are two other levels of seminars you must attend before you can APPLY to his "home school association" aka home school cult. This "association" is called ATI, Advanced Training Institure.<br /><br />You might think that with an adjective like "advanced" that Mr. Gothard's educational materials are top notch. Far from it. Mr Gothard's educational materials (only available to members who swear not to pass them on to non-Gathardites but I have seen them) are crap. They take an animal (science?) explain its habitat and behaviors, relate that somehow to the Bible (beavers=hard workers?) and then harp on and on about how important it is to have this godly character trait in your life.<br /><br />To be in ATI, I am pretty sure you have a strict set of guidelines to follow, including no TVs or microwaves. You are strongly encouraged to grind your own grain, have all the children possible (not practical, possible) and limit your children's contact with non-ATI families as much as possible. The support groups they encourage are for father's only, so that the father's can keep that iron grip on the family life.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-89921853084777746662010-12-10T11:58:34.751-08:002010-12-10T11:58:34.751-08:00I still strongly disagree with you. Bill Gothard ...I still strongly disagree with you. Bill Gothard is not in ministry to help people. Far from it. Bill Gothard is in ministry to get rich and feed his giant narcissistic ego. He uses people. <br /><br />The hierarchical spiritual power structures he promotes are intrinsically abusive. He is totally in business for himself, his own ego and wealth. The fact that his teachings destroy people is no concern of his.<br /><br />He does mislead people and his teachings do wreak pain in households across America. The man has never been married nor does he have any children (that he acknowledges or is publicly known anyway), so there is NO WAY he can claim that his "principles" work. He merely spouts opinions and proof-texts them with scripture lifted out of contest for support. <br /><br />Jesus and Bill Gothard are mutually exclusive beings. Knowing Jesus is not at all dependent on accepting Bill Gothard or any of his ridiculous rules. I suppose your throwing around of long-time evangelical slogans "Know Jesus, know peace" is somehow supposed to legitimize your cult equation of Gothard=Jesus but it falls way short.<br /><br />BILL GOTHARD IS A CULT LEADER AND ATI IS HIS CULT. You have obviously been well indoctrinated, Josiah. I suppose the cult is working out pretty well for you, seeing as how you are MALE and all. But it is still a cult, and Bill Gothard is still a cult leader.<br /><br />And yes, Jesus does love me!!! He loves me soooo much! And I love Jesus too. He is my Good Shepherd who shares His life, leading, love and friendship with me every day. Jesus was with me long before I even heard of Bill Gothard, in fact it is His gracious work in my life that enabled me to survive.<br /><br />Yes, Jesus loves me. And He loves you too.<br /><br />But Bill Gothard remains a snake oil salesman who loves no one but himself.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-48308853885810893992010-12-10T10:26:16.838-08:002010-12-10T10:26:16.838-08:00Shadowspring,
I understand what you are saying. I...Shadowspring,<br />I understand what you are saying. I too have friends and family who work for Gothard, and I can tell you that he has his fallacies, because, wait for it.......he is human. I will never legitimize any kind of "religous empire" or organization that bases happiness and salvation on works, steps, and a+b=c. Religious fanaticism is what flew planes into American buildings 9 years ago!! Neither am I saying that you did anything wrong in trying to apply what you learned at the seminar. <br /><br />I have had the blessing of being raised in a God-fearing family, so the principals we learned from him were incorporated as a family, yet I do not make all of his convictions my own. It sucks big time that you did not have that kind of upbringing, or the love that everyone should have. But you cannot truly believe that Gothard is out there to cause pain and suffering through maligned teaching. His whole ministry is directed to help youth and to shine the Light. <br /><br />Unfortunately, like you said, he does present these principals as absolutes, and because of that, you were turned off when applying them as such didn't work. Think of it this way. Say a product comes out that is guaranteed to help people lose weight. This product is carried all over the world and greatly advertised over anything else out there. But, it doesn't work for you, or your friends and half of the population out there. It may have worked for the people it was tested on, and been a legitimate product. However people are different, and respond to everything differently. Just as your mom responded negatively to your efforts to implement Gothard's teachings, other people experienced healing of relationships and restoration. When Bill Gothard said that if you would do these things, that it would heal your relationship, he obviously had some proof that it would work. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. Obviously, it didn't work for you or for a lot of people here on this blog, but he wasn't out there to mislead a lot of people and wreak pain in homes across America. Here's the bottom line. When we base spiritual success on "works", we set ourselves up for failure. It may work for some, but it obviously doesn't work for all.<br /><br />The only thing in this world that is ablsolute and that "works" for everybody is the Word of God and the principles therein; if they are willing to accept it. "Trying" Jesus never works. Jumping headfirst into His love and embracing it is what will change lives. Know Jesus, know peace. No Jesus, no peace.<br /><br />Jesus loves you.<br /><br />JosiahJosiah Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16640032053056121849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-82910636677017577062010-12-07T15:35:36.918-08:002010-12-07T15:35:36.918-08:00I strongly disagree Josiah, that Bill Gothard'...I strongly disagree Josiah, that Bill Gothard's teaching is in any way "legit". Not at all!!!<br /><br />I know friends who worked for Gothard's organization, and the only difference between Gothard and my mom is a religious empire. <br /><br />His principles- that if you do A then B will result- are proof-texted from the Bible, yes. In that way you can find them in the Bible. For example, what a man sows, that he also reaps. Or in Oklahoma bar parlance, what goes around comes around. Or in my son's lingo, karma can be a bitch!<br /><br />You see, all three generalizations are saying the same thing, but one is "Biblical". That's about how useful Gothard's so-called principles are. Mostly true, but not the absolutes he presents them to be. And he does present them as absolutes!<br /><br />You can have a pure heart and do everything right and still be abused. The teaching that a person has any control whatsoever over the behavior of their abuser only perpetuates abuse. Gothard teaches this in his Basic Youth Conflict seminar. I was there, remember? <br /><br />*I* was the one putting Gothard's words into practice, and they DO NO GOOD. They do no good because they are a twisted teaching. I did not misinterpret what he said. He promised that if I served the Lord with all my heart, honored my mom no matter what she said or did, loved and prayed for her, that God would change my mom. THAT WAS A LIE!<br /><br />I do not share Gothard's views about God micro-managing all of life into a reward/punishment system either, which is exactly what he teaches. See Greg Boyd's God of Possibilities for a Biblical view of life that fits much better with scripture as written and reality as experienced by us all.<br /><br />I feel for you Josiah David. There is a world of hurt waiting for you if you continue to follow Gothard.<br /><br />You do have this in your favor, though: you are compassionate and you seem to understand that the COMMAND of Jesus was to love like He loved. May the Spirit of Truth lead and guide you into all truth, and turn you away from following any but the Good Shepherd Himself.<br /><br />Peace and good will, SSshadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-65545220098422590152010-12-07T14:37:19.277-08:002010-12-07T14:37:19.277-08:00I just feel like apologizing on behalf of all of u...I just feel like apologizing on behalf of all of us who call ourselves Christians. I feel torn for your family and the hurt caused by "religion". People make their own choices, and some will never change regardless of what we do. As far as Bill Gothard is concerned; most of his teaching is legit. There is some stuff I disagree with, but the principles he bases his stuff on are from scripture. Where he takes them, is where people begin to scratch their heads. The reason he has "failed" for so many, is because they have placed their last bit of faith in doing all the things that Gothard says, and when they don't work, faith goes out the window. Going through the motions and following formulas works sometimes. There are times such as your case where God chooses to lead you through rather than bring you out. Gothard didn't ruin your family, your disfunctional mom and her "religious" people did. They misinterpreted what Gothard said, and they are the true hypocrites. I feel like I should apologize that there was no one around to be Jesus to you, to love you like He would have, and to take you in and tell you it would be ok, and that God has a plan for your life. Not that they would simply say or do that either, but that they would prove to you the love of Jesus, and not some religious hocus pocus. This shames me of my fellow believers in Christ that we do not properly show the love of Jesus. To the rest of you out there; be Jesus! Show the world that He loves us as we are, and earning and deserving His love is not something we can do. It is his free gift to us, and for all the pain and suffering here on earth, we will experience exponential blessing from God in heaven.Josiah Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16640032053056121849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-24129415975605716912010-11-15T06:22:53.092-08:002010-11-15T06:22:53.092-08:00Update: Here it is November again. My oldest sist...Update: Here it is November again. My oldest sister, the one I was speaking with last year at this time, telling her about the elders ceremony and our being "removed from the camp" i.e. kicked out to homelessness, is now estranged from me again. She hasn't spoken to me since this time last year, where she was weirdly combative about this subject when she told me that my little sister had never heard of this happening either.<br /><br />It's so tragic, how abusers keep families fragmented and turned against one another. <br /><br />I was only reconciled to this sister for two years. She came to me and apologized for not believing me as a teen/child and asked to be real sisters for the first time. I readily (if cautiously) agreed. For those two years we shared holidays, phone calls and overnight visits. I was so happy to have her as a sister for the first time.<br /><br />But exposing mom's secret tribunal against my twin and I (I didn't even know it WAS a secret!) changed it all. She went out to visit my mom and little sister and came back fully entrenched in the family system I myself left behind.<br /><br />Being a scapegoat, in the end, is way better than being one of the enmeshed offspring. I would rather live in truth with real love, than embrace deception for a conditional approval that is not by any means guaranteed to last.<br /><br />After all, my sister has to stay in relationship with an NPD mother, and I got to go free! =)shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-27627362110403137812010-03-24T07:38:09.368-07:002010-03-24T07:38:09.368-07:00Thanks for the compassion Guinevere. It helps. =)Thanks for the compassion Guinevere. It helps. =)shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-45011811539756563872010-03-13T16:24:01.725-08:002010-03-13T16:24:01.725-08:00Your mom sounds so cruel. I'm sorry for everyt...Your mom sounds so cruel. I'm sorry for everything you and your twin sister went through.Guineverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10058786129073896210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-40724364756118259062010-03-10T00:32:44.740-08:002010-03-10T00:32:44.740-08:00Amazing Post.Amazing Post.princessjo1988https://www.blogger.com/profile/00580408567571903614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-53117757181269429292010-03-09T06:18:00.579-08:002010-03-09T06:18:00.579-08:00"How can you explain it to someone who has n..."How can you explain it to someone who has never had to deal with an NPD person?"<br /><br />You and I both know we can't. The NPD spends so much time and effort looking good to outsiders. No one will ever believe us, except other survivors of NPD households.<br /><br />Like the counselor I tried talking to once about my mom. I described a few incidents and he boldly and calmly said, "Now then, that can't be true. I've met your mother and she seems like a very nice person. She can't be THAT bad..."<br /><br />I'm really surprised that I didn't commit suicide. =( Actually, my party friends kept me going as a teen. As messed up as that is, I wouldn't be here today without their love and acceptance.<br /><br />Personally, I think NPD and other personality disorders are attracted to QF/fundamentalism because it gives them spiritual permission to dominate and abuse. That's what my mom was getting out of it. <br /><br />So escapees from ATI families and other survivors of fundamentalist cults might benefit from some of the literature out there about NPD. My favorite is still "Children of the Self-Absorbed".shadowspringnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-84911310126000354422010-03-07T14:00:20.332-08:002010-03-07T14:00:20.332-08:00(((((hugs)))))
NPD just sucks. SUCKS. I'm c...(((((hugs)))))<br /><br />NPD just sucks. SUCKS. I'm convinced it is what my husband has, along with other things, and the thing about it that is so frustrating is how GOOD it always looks on the outside. Looking good to the outside world is his most prized possession...and yet *I* know the truth, the freaky twisted horrible truth...but how in the world can you explain it to someone who has never had to deal with an NPD person? It is so incredibly frustrating. Because people can't believe that someone would actually THINK the way an NPD person thinks. I know that I didn't...I kept trying to find explanations for his behavior for so long, because I literally couldn't imagine he could really actually be that cunning and manipulative on PURPOSE. <br /><br />I can't imagine how hard it would have been to grow up with an NPD mother. Ugh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-76890793985018689602010-03-05T13:56:38.424-08:002010-03-05T13:56:38.424-08:00Wow! My heart goes out to you. Bravo to you for te...Wow! My heart goes out to you. Bravo to you for telling your story. I hope that it helps you to sort things out in your own healing. I offer you gentle cyber hugs if you want them.OneSurvivorhttp://asurvivorsthoughtsonlife.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-45239188160346108372010-03-01T12:20:26.309-08:002010-03-01T12:20:26.309-08:00Whew, finally got over here Shadow.
Heart breakin...Whew, finally got over here Shadow.<br /><br />Heart breaking. Just heart breaking.<br /><br />And even still today the church is willfully ignorant about brain and personality disorders.Mara Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385458933795539928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-48889579217050410252010-02-26T07:05:29.032-08:002010-02-26T07:05:29.032-08:00Aw, thanks Naomi! *hugs back*Aw, thanks Naomi! *hugs back*shadowspringnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-11506131983065589202010-02-25T20:38:01.413-08:002010-02-25T20:38:01.413-08:00Woah. I'm so sorry for the pain you've ex...Woah. I'm so sorry for the pain you've experienced. You make such an important point--nothing you could have done would have changed your Mom. Billy G. (and plenty of other fundie gurus) puts all the responsibility on the least powerful person in a relationship. Having drunk that Kool-Aid all my life, I remember being 19 or 20 and reading a Max Lucado book that basically said if you hug a cactus you will get pricked; a jerk will be a jerk still regardless of your behavior.<br /><br />It was a freeing moment--I'm still trying to live in that freedom that I'm not responsible for others' actions.<br /><br />Warmest hugs to you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-9231100243094704822010-02-24T13:35:31.004-08:002010-02-24T13:35:31.004-08:00Of course! We ladies do need to support one anoth...Of course! We ladies do need to support one another, and I am grateful to modern technology for the space to tell my story. :)<br /><br />Two corrections: on second thought I believe we carpooled to the Gothard convention, but I know we met at the church and I did not ride up with my own family. It was definitely the same church elders responsible for our participation in the Gothard seminar and the symbolic stoning/exile. <br /><br />And though my mom did party on occasion, she was not a drunk by any means. I kind of wish she had been, it would have excused her behavior. :\ <br /><br />I was just pointing out her double life, and why her church attendance was so sporadic. When she had a man, no church. When she was out with her work friends (presumably on a man hunt? who knows?), no church. If any church ever started to catch on to her abusive/wordly ways, new church. Church attendance was just another way of managing her public image, so it all depended on what image she wanted to project at the time.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-51004784990223889692010-02-24T12:29:39.711-08:002010-02-24T12:29:39.711-08:00Thank you for being so vulnerable, Shadowspring. I...Thank you for being so vulnerable, Shadowspring. I'm going to link to these on my Quiverfull Daughters blog ~ it's so important for hurting young women to find places of support from other Christians. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com