tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post3152208321854571015..comments2023-08-19T01:00:21.479-07:00Comments on Love. Learning. Liberty.: Jesus vs. American "christians"shadowspringhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-46286816576009520572012-06-24T17:06:19.186-07:002012-06-24T17:06:19.186-07:00My view on one aspect of taking Jesus at his word:...My view on one aspect of taking Jesus at his word:<br />http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Pacifism-Fruit-Narrow-ebook/dp/B005RIKH62/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_t_1MikeSnowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462825086786614647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-44578773341200844192012-06-16T17:18:56.611-07:002012-06-16T17:18:56.611-07:00I am so glad it made you smile!!!!=DI am so glad it made you smile!!!!=Dshadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-23147056870180018502012-06-14T07:43:25.325-07:002012-06-14T07:43:25.325-07:00LMAO I can't get over the fact that someone is...LMAO I can't get over the fact that someone is called Ignacious George. My husband used to joke that we were going to name each of our kids that because he knew they were my two most hated names. Too funny.Rose ASLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519675898483081005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-90553506049728246132012-06-03T05:07:33.126-07:002012-06-03T05:07:33.126-07:00A young friend of mine posts what a world followin...A young friend of mine posts what a world following Jesus would like: http://ignaciousgeorge.tumblr.com/post/23918769911/taken-with-instagram<br /><br />So, stop pretending Jesus is all that to you if you are a nationalistic, power-mongering, self-centered greedy person. That's all. By all means, vote Republican, but stop claiming you are "taking America back for God" and other such nonsense. That's the point.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-29175754072678430112012-06-02T14:16:32.904-07:002012-06-02T14:16:32.904-07:00Amen to this article.Amen to this article.Rose ASLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03519675898483081005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-82374225600408091452012-06-02T10:03:59.520-07:002012-06-02T10:03:59.520-07:00Oops, poor (actually none) edit. "which"...Oops, poor (actually none) edit. "which"= "I" in first sentence.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-72646616579630317722012-06-02T10:02:25.504-07:002012-06-02T10:02:25.504-07:00Let's see, which don't believe in the deat...Let's see, which don't believe in the death penalty because too many people are wrongly convicted and executed. As long as people are alive there is a chance the innocent could be exonerated. Once they are dead, you can clear their name but you can't give their life back. That's why I am against the death penalty. <br /><br />Citizens motivated by their own hearts and minds advocate according to their own conscience. Since so many claim America is a Christian nation, and those same EXACT people are the ones advocating public policies that exploit the poor, ignore the sick, legislate penalties for marginalized people on the basis that they find them "unChristian"- those are the people I am outright calling hypocrites and liars.<br /><br />Hypocrites, because they claim America is a Christian nation, but then they advocate for national policies that are in direct contradiction to the commands of Christ.<br /><br />Liars because they deny this is what they are doing. They claim to be "restoring America to it's spiritual foundation" etc. but all they are doing is the same old same old that everyone in the world does:<br /><br />Favor the rich, exploit the poor, exclude the foreigner (keep your hands off my stash!), and generally look out for number one.<br /><br />That's human nature. There's nothing especially egregious about it for anyone EXCEPT those who claim to be advocating for Jesus. <br /><br />If you think it's more prudent, well much of evolution appears to be on your side. On the other hand, we evolved altruism for a reason too. <br /><br />Your social experiment of a nation following the counsel of Jesus to his disciples as some kind of test of whether his words are absolutely true sounds very strange to me. I don't know what you mean. <br /><br />You do remember that Jesus wound up crucified by the religious elites of his day. I think anyone following his life and words can expect similar treatment. I am not sure what it is you are trying to say.<br /><br />As for the US role in Syria, ask Hillary Clinton. She probably has enough information to answer that question. I am quite sure I do not.<br /><br />Peace and good will, SSshadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-84733841656396156182012-06-02T09:41:15.408-07:002012-06-02T09:41:15.408-07:00@Sandra... I agree.
@Shadowspring: Again, in theor...@Sandra... I agree.<br />@Shadowspring: Again, in theory, I would like to embrace Jesus' words to love all people. It's simple and I can see the beauty in it. Personally, I would like to aim for a world where I respond in understanding and love toward those that offend me and in addition,aggressively advocate for the oppressed. I cannot, however, shed my desire to protect myself with force if I deem necessary. I just don't see that as prudent. Having said that, I can see the contradiction in my position on that and my desired beliefs.<br /><br />As to the discussion of us as a nation, I would have to believe from everything that you said that you would not have a different set of policies for our governing body aside from Jesus' injunctions. For instance, I am assuming that you would not believe in the death penalty because murder is forbidden. I can see the consistency in your viewpoint. I am not ready to embrace that for reasons of my own deduced practicality.<br />I am seeing the logic in your views on 9/11. Yes, I think we could have pursued these acts of violence in a criminal justice system. We did not step back to consider this. We certainly have reacted to simply make our presence known without thinking. <br /><br />In addition to this,we are indeed, flawed, in our thinking to demonize certain evils, and not others.<br /><br />On a sidenote,if hacking is a terroristic crime, I, myself, have a little 15 year-old terrorist residing in my home. <br /><br />I started my discussion in the previous post questioning the wisdom in putting Jesus' words into action on a national level. Are you saying that you aren't considering that in your worldview because it is impossible to have that discussion due to your recognition that we are just a collection of citizens, not an entity? I would like to understand how we can be effective advocates if we are not considering the practicality of these doctrines on a national level. For instance, you mentioned immigration. Of course, I would like to welcome the downtrodden and poor to our country for better opportunities; and, yes, I do see that as a reflection of Jesus' words. BUT, I have reservations as to the wisdom of this for us financially. Read: healthcare.<br /><br />Totally changing the subject, I appreciate your challenge for me to think about the cost of our desire to defend ourselves- all the lost lives. I admit that I have not thoroughly thought this through. <br /><br />I can't agree with you on the citizens in heaven thing because that was used in my past to excuse too much fake spirituality. It has been used as such a cop out to deflect political discussions such as these. You aren't doing that because you are, in fact, fleshing these discussions out.<br /><br />Antother comment:I don't think that we are a Christian nation. As you said, one can never be; nor can it be defined. As I said erlier, I am trying to understand the viability of putting Jesus' words into effect in a national setting. In my view, that would be the supreme test of how absolutely true his words are. I am currently unwilling to do this because I don't see it as wise. <br /><br />P.S. What is your opinion on the US' role in Syria?Annnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-39296510781885638432012-06-01T10:05:08.835-07:002012-06-01T10:05:08.835-07:00As an American, one small member of that political...As an American, one small member of that political collective called the USA, I would like to make a few points about your desire to "defend my country from attack." <br /><br />The United States hasn't been attacked by a foreign nation since Pearl Harbor. No "conflict" since that time has been to protect our fellow citizens or defend the powerless within our borders. The attacks on 9/11 were criminal ventures on a grand scale, but our country was not attacked by another country. Just wanted to make sure you were clear on that.<br /><br />The "War on Terror" is stupid and Orwellian. War on an emotion? How can you ever win (or even end) a war on an emotion?<br /><br />A war on terrorISTS is possible, I suppose. But then we shall have to broaden our front on the war much wider. Shall we dispatch troops against the Aryan Brotherhood then? The Ku Klux Klan? Black Panthers? Grey Panthers?<br /><br />Who gets to define the word "terror"? Who is the enemy in this war? <br /><br />According to my son, the government considers computer hacking an act of terrorism. Shall we do violence to the young people of the world in the fight against "terror"? Is hacking a facebook account on the same level as hacking a government web page? Is interfering with the loading of a government web interface (web page) on the same level as hacking into an internal system, like a government database or secure email server?<br /><br />And why are we not using the criminal justice system to try and convict criminals? Why declare "war" at all? So that torture and indefinite detention of accused criminals ("terrorists") can be justified in the public imagination? It seems to have worked so far, and has been expanded to include American citizens accused of "supporting" (not even willfully or knowingly, just accused of acts interpreted as "supporting") an organization declared a "terrorist" organization by the government.<br /><br />The outrage of Americans over the criminal mass murders committed on 9/11 has been used to justify a lot of bloodshed, torture and injustice. Nearly twice as many military personnel have died in the War on Terror (http://militarytimes.com/valor/)<br />than citizens died on 9/11. I have no idea how huge that number gets when you count the large number of disabled vets, plus all the non-military people (American and foreign) in Iraq and Afghanistan that have died. <br /><br />Our desire for vengeance over justice has really magnified the death and destruction of 9/11 many times over. How much bloodshed do you personally feel is necessary to make you feel well-defended, Ann? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this topic.<br /><br />What about personally as a Christian, and then also as a part of the political organization we call the USA?shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-37001136739750338092012-06-01T10:04:25.025-07:002012-06-01T10:04:25.025-07:00My entire post was about how Jesus advocated treat...My entire post was about how Jesus advocated treating our neighbors- you know, those people living next to us, in our cities, our states, our country. I don't believe I discussed nationalism (though as a Christian I am not a huge fan; we are to live as strangers and pilgrims on earth ourselves, looking for a better country to belong to, according to the author of Hebrews at least) or war at all. <br /><br />If I need to go on record as far as war, or any self-defense really, my personal position is that I would not take another person's life to defend my own. I would take a life to protect the defenseless were it to be my responsibility (love your neighbor, stand up for the oppressed) to do so. I would take any non-lethal stand against someone personally bullying me, starting by passively turning the other cheek, and progressing on to vacating the area where possible. I consider it my duty to my fellow man to advocate against oppression more actively, but I would not do violence in support of my position.<br /><br />I don't believe America is "a Christian nation". That's bull hocky. Nations are political entities, not persons. (By the way, corporations aren't people either. However people run both nations and corporations, and those so charged do have ethical responsibilities to the people whose lives are affected by their decisions.Ethics do not depend on religion.) <br /><br /><br />But if it were possible to be a "Christian nation", then in order to be honest disciples, yup, we would have to eschew war if at all possible. But considering what-if a nation could be "Christian" is like considering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is completely irrelevant to real life, so why bother?shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-64262402713221448552012-06-01T10:02:43.066-07:002012-06-01T10:02:43.066-07:00You don't have to be a pacifist to stand up fo...You don't have to be a pacifist to stand up for human dignity and human rights. You don't have to start wars, or even fight in them if you do your work soon enough, to defend the undefended. Loving your neighbor, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, healing the sick, caring for widows and orphans (and modern-day socially disenfranchised equivalent demographics), is not in any opposition to pacifism. <br /><br />You can start with your vote--don't vote for anyone who spews hatred, don't vote for any referendum that marginalizes anyone or reduces the rights of individuals. Vote, lobby for, promote public and private policies that do the things that Jesus preached. Vote against, protest, and get vocal about laws, local mores, and social trends that oppose the things that Jesus preached.Sandra Keehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16979912092987681396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-41102702892587264132012-06-01T09:20:03.225-07:002012-06-01T09:20:03.225-07:00Shadowspring,
I aspire to what you are saying, but...Shadowspring,<br />I aspire to what you are saying, but in practicality I am wondering how it fleshes itself out-just like pacifism. I would like peace, but when confronted, would definitely vote to defend my country from attack. I love Scott Adams' Dogbert hoping to get everyone to believe in pacifism so that he can take over without any resistance. <br />Not that I'm holding on to any of my old beliefs, but I was always taught that those passages on "turning the other cheek" had to do with individual relationships, not governmental.<br />Just trying to explore your thoughts on this topic.Annnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-85001648450164607152012-06-01T09:12:32.509-07:002012-06-01T09:12:32.509-07:00ONLY IF THEY REMOVE/IGNORE THE WORDS AND LIFE OF C...<i>ONLY IF THEY REMOVE/IGNORE THE WORDS AND LIFE OF CHRIST. </i><br /><br />I've seen this done a couple of ways in various theological systems.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380432930727921469noreply@blogger.com