tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post669181881987625873..comments2023-08-19T01:00:21.479-07:00Comments on Love. Learning. Liberty.: Feminism and Meshadowspringhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-3257450254145948092018-08-08T11:43:19.778-07:002018-08-08T11:43:19.778-07:00I'm older than most people commenting here. I...I'm older than most people commenting here. I grew up feeling worthless because my mother was a woman ahead of her time. She and my father were feminists before it had taken off -- in that, only paid work and really important paid work - as in, careers, mattered. Both parents were immigrants and so my sister and I were really inconvenient. There were no extended family in either case to help bear the burden of childcare. My mom left my dad when I was four and my dad left my sister and I when I was seven. We went back to him when he remarried when I was eleven and his new wife, 12 years younger than him -- was equally committed to the only thing that matters is paid work. Careers. I was forcefed MS magazine in years of subscriptions to it given to me as gifts by my step mother. My sister ran away from home after 3 years. I stayed until univ. where I got a steady diet of feminism. Kate Millet "lets get rid of marriage and the traditional family" or Gloria Steinem, "Wives are parasites," Or Shulamith Firestone or Betty Friedan or Germaine Greer or Susan Faludi -- I had 18 years of university believing the only worthwhile 'career' was academic. Only great minds mattered. I stiffled the longing for family. What it comes down to is this: Love matters. It matters a lot. It is expressed with hands and time and blood and bodily fluids. It isn't primarily cerebral. If the work of love is pointless, so was the work Christ did -- hands on healing, story telling, feeding and bearing. Most of the western secular world agrees that it was pointless. But without it? My sister and I would have killed to have one of those moms cookie baking SAHMs that feminists claim to 'value' without ever celebrating or promoting or fighting for. Just someone who was there - who didn't have something more important than people to do. I don't think the current generation has any idea how destructive feminism can be. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715385935899870210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-49820777845326937412011-07-14T14:31:11.690-07:002011-07-14T14:31:11.690-07:00I'm sorry that you've had such poor treatm...I'm sorry that you've had such poor treatment, and I hope my generation manages to eradicate some of that entrenched mentality. It's frustrating, because the problem is not the women who stay home, it's those who want to make staying home the only option for women. It's a bit like punishing Muslim women for wearing burqas when the problem is the culture that tells them they have to.<br /><br />I did want to address one thing, though:<br />"If there's support out there for that, it's not a reality yet."<br /><br />They do exist, though they aren't everywhere. There is a women's center at my local university that gives scholarships explicitly to women who have had breaks in their education for more than four years. Most of the recipients turn out to be mothers - not all SAHMs, of course, but many are. These scholarships, free career counseling and grants for financial difficulty are some of the sources they provide for women going back to school. So there may not be many such places or sources of help, but some do exist.Sierrahttp://nonprophetmessage.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-55041160996604402332011-07-14T10:33:32.989-07:002011-07-14T10:33:32.989-07:00Lolz There is very little help for anyone going to...Lolz There is very little help for anyone going to college these days except Pell grants and loans. I have never seen anything esp. for mothers returning to school. If there's support out there for that, it's not a reality yet.<br /><br />I've known several SAHFs. My son's best friend had a SAHF, but like me, he's returning to the workforce now that our boys are out of high school. I have met two home schooling SAHFs, and my daughter is interested in marrying one if you know any smart, cute guys in their twenties interested in that kind of arrangement. :p (She'll kill me for typing that if she ever reads it. She doesn't need mom out there looking for potential boyfriends. She can find all she needs on her own, thank you.)<br /><br />I still will not tell anyone I'm in school with that I have been a SAHM, much less home schooling. All the other women my age in school have been working all along and simply want to compete for better jobs. I'm not letting anyone know, because I think that both my instructors and my fellow students will change their whole attitude towards me from one of acceptance to one of contempt. I've just seen it too often to believe everyone is really okay with a woman choosing to be a SAHM. <br /><br />Now men, I have no problem with knowing. In fact, they seem to actually support the fact that I'm out there working on new goals after staying home for a season. <br /><br />I wish everyone was as supportive as you and Libby, Sierra (and some of my other online friends) but that's just not been my experience in real life. I even had the pediatrician's office staff and the orthodontist's office staff turn up their nose when they ask where I work (or more commonly, what do I do) and I say home educator or full-time at home. I get a much better response when I say I tutor high school and middle school students. True enough,anyway, and a LOT more socially acceptable to working women!shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-25025375535068288832011-07-13T14:28:35.149-07:002011-07-13T14:28:35.149-07:00The feminism that I have come to know absolutely i...The feminism that I have come to know absolutely is about elevating motherhood to a position of respect - as Libby says, this is one of the chief concerns of the new wave. It does slip under the radar, though, because it's often framed differently now.<br /><br />I consider all of the following the fruits of feminism:<br />-Family-friendly work policies that allow flexible, part time schedule and parental leave to both fathers and mothers<br />-Steps taken toward accessible, affordable, quality childcare for fathers and mothers<br />-Financial assistance for mothers going back to school before or after children are grown<br /><br />I think my generation prioritizes family over work, broadly speaking. We are very discontented with the framing of work and family as opposites and hate to choose between them. We also hate having to choose one because it's expected of us as women or men. My partner, for instance, does not want to be defined by his work even though he cares about it intensely. He also wants to be a friend, mentor, and family member. He doesn't want to devote 80 hours a week to being a breadwinner. We both think it's a terrible way to live.<br /><br />Workplace policies like maternity leave were a start, but they're being expanded as growing numbers of men also resent the idea that their wives are the only ones who get to spend time with their children. Men increasingly want to be active fathers.<br /><br />Feminists overwhelmingly support these moves toward a new concept of work that empowers parents. They also support the right of men to stay home with their children if they choose - and this needs to happen, I think, to erase some of the gendered stigma of stay-at-home parenting.<br /><br />I think feminists do support SAHMs, but they do it in a way that is not overtly about *mothers*. They support active parenting by both sexes. The SAHM is not called out specifically because feminists want to support SAHFs too.Sierrahttp://nonprophetmessage.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-43085951284135613132011-07-03T06:12:08.327-07:002011-07-03T06:12:08.327-07:00Thank you so much, Raine! I'm pretty crunchy ...Thank you so much, Raine! I'm pretty crunchy too, at least in my sentiments. I love the idea of attachment parenting, but I could never get the sling to work for me. Ditto doulas and natural birthing, letting the 4000 yr old mother within help me along, but both my babies were breech! Finally, I love the idea of wholesome homemade foods, and home ground grain tastes so much better, but in the end sales, coupons and Sam's Club rule the day I shop for groceries.<br /><br />I guess you could say I am a crunchy sympathizer? =D<br /><br />I look forward to reading your links. You younger generations give me so much hope for the future! This is as it should be. Keep making us mamas proud. n_nshadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-43497953943802808202011-07-02T21:24:14.855-07:002011-07-02T21:24:14.855-07:00One of the things that really should make more fem...One of the things that really should make more feminists more interested in motherhood, homeschooling, etc is that that childrearing, domestic work, and all the typical elements of most SAHMs' lives are devalued because they are still seen as primarily women's concerns.<br /><br />That said, I've seen a lot of feminists in my age group (mid-late 20s through 30s) who are mothers and are passionate about both motherhood and feminism. Several of them are stay at home moms, and a few are homeschoolers or unschoolers as well. Maybe it's because I'm drawn to crunchy, attachment parenting, and birth advocate type people, but I see a lot of concern about how feminism needs to do more and relate more to the needs of mothers and pregnant women, and how women who choose stay at home motherhood should be respected and supported, not shunned or judged.<br /><br />Here's a long interview with a woman who wrote a book on feminist motherhood:<br />http://feministreview.blogspot.com/2008/05/reclaiming-feminist-motherhood.html<br /><br />And a blog post with questions for feminist mothers and links to their responses in the comments:<br />http://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2007/10/29/what-does-a-feminist-mother-look-like/<br /><br />There are also quite a few feminist moms who blog - off the top of my head, I'd suggest searching for "The Feminist Breeder", "Raising My Boychick", and "First, the Egg"Rainehttp://www.mamarants.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-8117788899815773652011-07-01T19:48:06.762-07:002011-07-01T19:48:06.762-07:00Anonymous, you are sure opinionated, which I can r...Anonymous, you are sure opinionated, which I can respect. I am too! But you are so wrong about home schooling. <br /><br />Home schooling isn't the best for all kids, I'll grant you that much. But it absolutely can be the best for many, for a year, two years, or even their entire elementary and secondary education.<br /><br />Home schooling does not mean keeping kids isolated at home or unable to develop meaningful relationships with other adults and children. <br /><br />Not only is there a large home schooling community in this big city area in which we live, but our neighbors, coaches, personal trainers, private instructors, and folks from our religious community all provide meaningful adult interaction for my children. They make friends in the neighborhood, on their sports teams, at church and in their other activities (some home schooled).<br /><br />I am an excellent teacher. In fact, I charge $25 an hour to tutor other peoples children, and I never lack for clients. Most of my clients are publicly schooled students. I have never had an unsatisfied client yet, and I have been tutoring six years now. As far as that goes, I am an expert, with fourteen years home schooling under my belt.<br /><br />I would love to have my children respond to your uninformed and prejudiced comment about home schooling. My oldest is a junior in college and under contract with the USAF upon graduation. She consistently makes the dean's honor roll and has time for a social life. She also tutors for extra money. She tutors Japanese. <br /><br />My son is too busy hanging out with friends, working on his Spanish for his upcoming trip to Dominican Republic with the Center for International Educational Exchange. He wrote an essay that earned him a $2500 scholarship towards the expenses of his trip. He also needed a letter of recommendation from his teacher. His speech club coordinator wrote it for him. Her words:<br /><br /> "We have a very diverse group of young people from all walks of life, with many different religions and ethnic backgrounds. Each student must deliver at least 10 speeches on topics of their choice. These have included impassioned speeches about the environment, anti-bullying, human rights (including gay rights), musical interests, anti-drug use, etc. *********** has been with our Gavel Club for two years. *********** is very popular and manages to get along with everyone in the group. He has mentored new members and shows great leadership potential...<br />I would recommend him without hesitation and wish him luck in his future endeavors."shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-85647977532083002642011-07-01T19:42:23.716-07:002011-07-01T19:42:23.716-07:00Also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/juliette-frett...Also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/juliette-frette/the-stay-at-home-feminist_b_529437.htmlLibby Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562805251128821984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-12177189349649002102011-07-01T17:00:32.229-07:002011-07-01T17:00:32.229-07:00I always felt very important during my childhood e...I always felt very important during my childhood even though neither of my parents stayed home. Homeschooling actually isn't the best for kids. It's best for them to get care by professionals, in an environment where they can independently develop meaningful relationships with other kids and adults. Staying home is sort of selfish and controlling. And there is no way for a parent to provide the same quality education as a team of professional teachers. It's got nothing to do with feminism. It's about children's rights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-31194334568044972702011-07-01T09:57:34.258-07:002011-07-01T09:57:34.258-07:00I'm pretty sure that was actually one of the d...I'm pretty sure that was actually one of the demands of the second wave - wages for housework, or something like that.Libby Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562805251128821984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-52121374085309715762011-07-01T09:49:32.416-07:002011-07-01T09:49:32.416-07:00Ugh, my grammar in the above comment is atrocious....Ugh, my grammar in the above comment is atrocious.<br /><br />"it would give women more options in who <b> about whom </b> to support politically as well."shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-35309359309564579542011-07-01T09:47:08.446-07:002011-07-01T09:47:08.446-07:00Interesting reading, though I'm not all the wa...Interesting reading, though I'm not all the way through the links yet. Very hopeful and encouraging in many ways. I am glad that there is a debate on the issue.<br /><br />I think home schooling was/is a feminist venture- a woman is doing all the planning, executing, evaluating and adjusting in the vast majority of cases. <br /><br />Perhaps the realization of this reality is what galvanized the patriarchy to take over home schooling. I think it was Karen Campbell who pointed out that religious men take over every endeavor pioneered by women in the church. Single women started the foreign missions movement (think Gladys Aylward and Lottie Moon) but were pushed out and marginalized by men once it got off the ground. Ditto homeschooling. (It might have been the ladies over at Wartburg Watch, if it wasn't Karen Campbell of "thatmom". I should've bookmarked the article!)<br /><br /><br />On the other hand, the articles I've read so far do point out that the sentiment "SAHMs are bad, mmkay" (done in my best imitation of the school counselor from Southpark, Mr. Mackey) IS still around and some feminists are calling for that voice to become more strident and louder than ever. I agree with the author calling it out as foolish, but it is still there nonetheless.<br /><br />Hopefully future generations (maybe even yours!) will be able to convince their sisters the mommy wars should be abandoned and that child care is a socially valuable way to spend your time. Maybe even one day society will pay people who embrace child raising as a career with the financial payoff and honor such important work deserves.<br /><br />It would break patriarchal religions claim to the moral high ground on this issue, and it would give women more options in who to support politically as well. That would be wonderful for everyone, but especially for our children and those who value their company.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-48884647202799410432011-07-01T09:03:33.185-07:002011-07-01T09:03:33.185-07:00Also, I really think there's something to your...Also, I really think there's something to your idea that patriarchy was allowed to flourish in part as a result of the second wave's dismissive attitude toward housework and motherhood. I had never really thought of it that way before! And I agree, feminism truly valuing motherhood and the choice some women make to stay at home will help decrease the appeal of patriarchy, and while I think that this is already happening, though it still has further to go. And I'm right there with you working to make that happen! Part of why I chose to have the term "feminism" in my blog title is that I want to help rehabilitate it from the negative image so many people seem to have it. It's really not what they think! Anyway, thanks for the food for thought!Libby Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562805251128821984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-36281202106683935512011-07-01T08:56:59.851-07:002011-07-01T08:56:59.851-07:00Thanks for the links, Libby!Thanks for the links, Libby!shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-5532122266318099962011-07-01T08:49:25.039-07:002011-07-01T08:49:25.039-07:00Shadow: I recently read a book by a woman who had ...Shadow: I recently read a book by a woman who had a husband and high powered career, and then after her daughter was born she had her career take a back seat and worked part time from home. She wrote a book about her experiences working out the relationship between feminism and motherhood, and I thought it was excellent. It's called Reading Women, by Stephanie Staal. (http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Women-Great-Feminism-Changed/dp/1586488724)<br /><br />In addition, here is a Salon article saying exactly what you say here: http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2006/02/06/friedan/<br /><br />I'll grant that this is something that is still being worked out, and that not all feminists agree. Some feminists do say that choosing to stay at home is illegitimate and not a choice at all, but I don't that those few represent the views of the vast majority of feminists. Feminism is in some sense an arena in which to discuss and debate women's issues, for we have learned that resolving them is far from simple. Feminism is about working that out, with the representation of a variety of voices. <br /><br />I plan to stay at home and work part time from there once I finish my PhD, and I have other friends who are ardent feminists who are making the same choice. Yes, there is still a ways to go here, and it is a battle to be fought, but I think that is a battle that is currently being fought, and that is proving successful, not one that hasn't started. At least, that's how it appears to me.<br /><br />A couple of additional articles:<br /><br />Here is a newspaper article by a feminist stay-at-home-mother which includes the quote "it is only when the feminist vision is fully valued that motherhood will be valued": http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=48JOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q_0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2477,7303712&dq=feminism+motherhood&hl=en<br /><br />Here is a link to an article discussing the Motherhood Manifesto, which aims at improving conditions for mothers in all situations: http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2006/05/05/revolution<br /><br />Here is an article by a career woman who puts motherhood first: http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/03/02/putting_motherhood_ahead_of_my_career_open2011Libby Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562805251128821984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-42115643212396332712011-07-01T08:01:36.950-07:002011-07-01T08:01:36.950-07:00Great insights! Perhaps the failure of -isms is th...Great insights! Perhaps the failure of -isms is that they get stuck in a myopic view which precludes them--at their heart--from seeing a bigger picture. Feminism, as you point out, has a perfectly legitimate goal, but in focusing only on "the woman" the ideas become too small and therefore damaging. Same with patriarchy: Dads are important. True! But getting caught up in "dad" leads to horrible outcomes when the fact that a husband is to love his family as Christ loved the church--sacrificing Himself for her--is replaced by the idea that the dad is what the family is all about.<br /><br /> ~LukeLuke Holzmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07799632321310461828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-67693442800751558642011-07-01T07:57:43.532-07:002011-07-01T07:57:43.532-07:00That would be incredibly great news, Libby. I wou...That would be incredibly great news, Libby. I would love that! Can you link to me to some feminist articles that embrace motherhood and accept SAHM as a valid choice? That would be water to a thirsty soul.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-23711037622315615002011-07-01T07:44:49.706-07:002011-07-01T07:44:49.706-07:00"Patriarchy is "up with women and childr..."Patriarchy is "up with women and children" but only as assets of the man."<br /><br />Ack! So true! And yet, I failed to see the misogyny and the threat behind it, because they were at least giving public honor to the valuable and worthy actions of <i>carrying, birthing, nourishing and nurturing the next generation</i>.<br /><br /><br />It sucks that feminism has left that <b>important recognition</b> out of the party line. Their rejection makes women vulnerable to the open recognition of the importance of children and caring for children by the religious right. Even though it turns out in the end to be mere flattery on the patriarchs part, it is the only segment of society even giving lip service to children and caring for children.<br /><br />I really hope the next generation of feminism will open up and start honoring children and those who give them life and care. If that were to happen, it would take away a huge part of the appeal that the religious right has for women who love children. <br /><br />We would love to find our roles honored and valued outside of religion. It would break the stronghold with which traditional religious ideas traps women,because though they publicly honor SAHMs/mothering, in private they often treat women who choose that life with the same disrespect that stiletto-heeled career bitch showed me back in Florida.<br /><br />What's an intelligent women who understands the importance of children and nurturing children to make of it all? Like you wrote, no one is "up with children". Feminists should change that.shadowspringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15172112981244682382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-71104492539754220492011-07-01T07:42:08.605-07:002011-07-01T07:42:08.605-07:00"If only feminism would open their hearts to ..."If only feminism would open their hearts to include children and caring for children, and give traditional women's roles the honor they deserve, patriarchy would dry up and blow away in a generation."<br /><br />I like that - and I think that is very true. I do think that second wave feminists went too far in disparaging these things, but then, you do have to remember what they were reacting against, and in that light their actions are fairly understandable. I have to say, though, that my experience with feminism today is that it DOES provide a place for honoring motherhood and children. Granted that I only came to feminism within the last few years, but feminism today as I understand it embraces female choice, which includes women's choice to stay at home, and it also embraces children and motherhood. I really haven't met any feminists who believe otherwise. Does this perhaps have to do with the difference between second wave and third wave? Perhaps it's just because we have different experiences, but I have found feminism to be VERY validating of my experiences as both a wife and a mother. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my experience feminism has corrected (or perhaps is correcting) this problem.Libby Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562805251128821984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1802896743878321184.post-77372097240872263772011-07-01T07:28:02.097-07:002011-07-01T07:28:02.097-07:00Sadly, what you write it true--feminism is "u...Sadly, what you write it true--feminism is "up with women" at the expense of children and, largely, men. Patriarchy is "up with women and children" but only as assets of the man. Where is the -ism that is "up with children" as the spiritual and material future of humanity? As the investment in culture and civilization that they are and always have been? The world has NO greater function than the stewardship of the sacred trust with our continuity as a people, as a species, as a world. For all the kinds of wrong that ancient forms of patriarchy is, I think it does better at taking the long view than any form of social organization since. Agrarian and pastoral societies know intuitively if not consciously that renewal of resources is the only means of survival and that human capital is necessary. Perhaps life was less cheap when if when it was more easily lost.<br /><br />Socially as we move from tribalism to feudalism to industrialism to post-modern whatever-ism, we seem to carry with us the seeds of our own destruction even as we seek to improve on our conditions. We have yet to make that cosmic shift to global consciousness. The seeds of that enlightenment have been in every culture but unfortunately that is often what is left behind as culture changes.Sandra Keehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16979912092987681396noreply@blogger.com