Wednesday, February 24, 2010

Bill Gothard has negativley affected my life part 2

My twin sister flopped down on her bed, a dreamy look on her face. She was clutching a beautiful down parka to her chest, hugging it like a teddy bear. I sat tentatively on the edge of the bed, swinging my feet that were snugly encased in my new leather boots. They were Christmas presents, unusual Christmas presents. Past Christmases never had expensive or thoughtful gifts, not for "the twins". We got socks and new underwear and inexpensive clothing. But this stuff was quality! So unusual.

We were continuing a conversation that had been going on for three weeks at that point.

"Isn't it beautiful?" my sister squealed as she buried her face in the parka. "See, Mom is changing. I think she finally wants us to have a happy family. I can't believe how nice she is being to us. It's like a dream!" Her blue eyes sparkled with hope, and I loved her in that moment as only a sister can. She was so beautiful, so happy. She was beginning to believe that mom might actually love her.

My heart hurt for her, and I wanted so much to protect her from hoping. It had never ended in anything but disappointment and heartache where my mom was concerned. And yet my sister was so happy right then, how could I crush that? I'd have to be as big a monster as my mom to crush her happiness.

"I hope you're right." I finally offered. "I don't trust her. Something is up. It is not like her to be so kind and thoughtful. I think she's plotting something new."

I looked down at my sweet, tender sister's face. A cloud had come across her joyous expression. Why, God, did my sister have to live with this too? Why couldn't it just be me? I would have given anything to spare her from the pain I knew too well myself.

"But I'm cynical, you know me. You're probably right. It's just hard for me to trust her." I flopped down next to her and stared at the ceiling.

We talked of other things for awhile, and then I crossed the hall to my own room and went to bed. As I lay there drifting off to sleep, I thought maybe, just maybe, my mom had grown a heart. Like the Grinch. Maybe.


"Get up and get dressed. We have company. Come to the den. Do it NOW!"

The old mom was back. The angry voice, void of anything resembling kindness, the abrupt demands, the expectation of bad attitudes on our part. Oh, God. I immediately thought of my sister. This was going to crush her.

Another piece of my heart broke as I pulled on jeans and a T-shirt. I put on my game face along with my clothes. This was going to be ugly, I knew that much.

I had no idea how ugly it would get.

As I opened my bedroom door and stepped into the hallway I saw my sister. She was so frightened and bewildered. I will never forget the look on her face. Tears are in my eyes as I type this. If God really means it about millstones and drowning for offending little ones, there will literally be hell to pay for what happened next.

Our house was small so it took very little time to get to the den. There in our little den, sat the elders of my mom's fundamentalist church-the same fundamentalist church that took us all in buses to the Gothard seminar.

Oh God, help us! What has she done this time?

I took my sister's hand. I have never seen a more wounded expression on a person's face. I wished I could protect her from whatever evil was about to befall us, but I was as helpless as she was.

If only she hadn't hoped, I thought. Oh sweet sister, why did you trust her? She only ever does evil.

I'm not sure when exactly my brain shut down. I remember the pastor standing up (wicked man!) with his big black Bible. I remember the sectional sofa full of men, all of whom I knew from church. The pastor began to speak in a loud voice.

First he went on about what a godly woman my mom was (Ha! If he only knew.) and how she had tried so hard to raise us for the Lord (Is he talking about the same person?). Then he began to go on about how rebellious we were (True of me, NOT true of my sister!) and finally he got to the Bible reading.

He read from the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 21:
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Once he started reading, I checked out. I probably talked over him to my sister, telling her not to listen, that this was bullshit. I don't remember exactly what I said and did, but I do remember shutting out everything that was going on around me.

Seems my mom, who was at best neglectful and at worst violent, whose righteous deeds pretty much consisted of going to church on occasion if she wasn't hung over or spending the night at her boyfriends, had convinced these patriarchs that she was a helpless little woman in need of their protection. Could those big strong elders please come and rescue her from these rebellious ungodly teenagers? And they fell for it: hook, line and sinker.

The real story is that my mom feared my sister and I. She found out that we had recently renewed our relationship with our estranged step-father. She knew that might result in a new custody battle for my little sister. She had to discredit us, and do it quick. Otherwise, we might talk and someone might believe us and then where would she be? No one would leave a child in her home if anyone believed us.

The bottom line, pronounced the pastor, was that we deserved to die for being rebellious to our poor, helpless, uncovered-by-a-man overwrought mother.

But since stoning wasn't legal, we were given two options. Call my step-father to come and get us or they would call the police and have us declared incorrigible (a legal status) by the state and we would go to juvenile justice.

I know enough now to confidently state that the second option was a bluff. We'd never been in trouble with the law for anything serious. I skipped a lot of school one semester, but was back on track at that time. The law in that state about incorrigible youth was intended to get the chronically criminal off the street. We were typical teens, not criminals.

But we didn't know that at the time. The threat seemed very real that day.

We called our (non-religious)step-dad, who came and got us, and that was a temporary fix. My mom never stopped trying to destroy our lives, however, and my step-dad had no idea what to do with teenage daughters. He had been a single workaholic man for the past fifteen years! But he had a heart, praise God, so he showed up for us in our hour of rejection. I will always love him for that.

Eventually my mom would make sure that I wound up in foster care and on my own with nothing when I aged out. My twin sister was dumped on the street at eighteen with nothing, my mom having stolen all the money in my sister's savings account since it was in her name as well. We were completely discredited- homeless high school dropouts. Mom wins again.

The truth is, my mom played those patriarchs like a fiddle. She loved the idea of absolute authority and total submission as long as she was the one in authority- LOL! In her personal life, she honored no one but herself. Not long after she got these people to do her dirty work, she moved on to another job and another city.

The thing about the NPD my mom suffers from is that my mom truly doesn't care. She didn't care if we partied. She didn't care if we went to school. She did not care. She had never tried to win us over to a righteous way of life. It really did not matter to her at all what we did with our time or our lives as long as she was not inconvenienced.

The only thing she cared about was her reputation. It could never get out what kind of monster she truly was, because she has an unyielding need to appear perfect at all times. This was the source of all her rage when she was angry- we had negatively affected her life or reputation in some way and that must never, ever happen. It's a mental illness; I don't think she is capable of change. It's just how she is.

No amount of "godly submission" or a "sweet spirit" on my part would have ever changed her. I don't think there is a medication that could help, and it is the nature of the illness that she will never seek help. She can't admit to anything less than perfection, or her whole psyche will collapse. The fear that people will find out the truth- that at her core being she is lacking essential human qualities like love and empathy- terrifies the NPD woman. Anger at having that veneer of perfection threatened and fear that she will be exposed are the only emotions NPD sufferers ever honestly experience.

The pain of that day never goes away. I recently found out that neither of my other two sisters ever knew what happened that day! My little sister was told we wanted to go live with my Dad. My older sister was already out of the house so that's what mom told her too. Mom must always look perfect. According to her, she was the victim here as we just up and called our step-dad and LEFT HER! Out of the blue!(insert tears here) I only discovered this lie recently and here's how I found out:

To this day my twin sister will have nothing to do with any church or Christianity as a religion. She is deeply wounded emotionally and has suffered greatly from depression and anxiety her whole adult life. My older sister was being very critical of my twin sister for refusing to go to church. So I shared this story with my older sister to explain WHY my twin wouldn't ever go to any church ever again.

That's when my older sister told me that she never knew! Mom kept it a secret for almost thirty years! Incredible. But it makes perfect NPD sense. My mom wouldn't tell my sister the truth, that she had called the church elders and kicked us out complete with a religious ceremony. My sister knew my mom wasn't exactly a devoted Christian and that the whole thing was a scam. Much better to lie and win my sister's sympathy than tell the truth and be scorned.

This is where it continues to be twisted. Life with an NPD never changes. Mom spent a lot of time fostering mistrust between sisters. My older sister asked my younger sister if she knew about this incident. My younger sister did not, but had also heard that we left mom of our own free will. All those years of maligning my character had the intended effect. Even now my sisters hesitate to believe me.

Happily, my step-dad is still alive and he can verify these events. And my best friend at the time still lives in that city, and she can verify those events as she came over right away to say goodbye and help us pack. My mom gave us until my step-father showed up to gather our things and get out. There are witnesses other than those elders and my twin and myself.

So, does everyone get why the nice winter parka and the good leather boots? It was to "bless us" on the way out the door, her pre-emptive gift to the homeless for the coming winter. As a good friend of mine would say later, mom must have been singing inside, "These boots are made for walking, and that's just what they'll do, one of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you."

I haven't looked at the events of that day for a long time. I post them today in solidarity to every daughter who has been kicked out on the streets under religious pretenses.

I post them today in solidarity to every daughter who has seen her siblings suffer and been helpless to protect them from spiritual and emotional abuse.

I post them today in solidarity to every daughter who has been lied about to her siblings by manipulative parents who want to keep the truth hidden and the exiled daughter a pariah.

I am not a Quiverfull daughter. But I totally empathize with those who are. You have my unflinching support.


  1. Thank you for being so vulnerable, Shadowspring. I'm going to link to these on my Quiverfull Daughters blog ~ it's so important for hurting young women to find places of support from other Christians. Thank you.

  2. Of course! We ladies do need to support one another, and I am grateful to modern technology for the space to tell my story. :)

    Two corrections: on second thought I believe we carpooled to the Gothard convention, but I know we met at the church and I did not ride up with my own family. It was definitely the same church elders responsible for our participation in the Gothard seminar and the symbolic stoning/exile.

    And though my mom did party on occasion, she was not a drunk by any means. I kind of wish she had been, it would have excused her behavior. :\

    I was just pointing out her double life, and why her church attendance was so sporadic. When she had a man, no church. When she was out with her work friends (presumably on a man hunt? who knows?), no church. If any church ever started to catch on to her abusive/wordly ways, new church. Church attendance was just another way of managing her public image, so it all depended on what image she wanted to project at the time.

  3. Woah. I'm so sorry for the pain you've experienced. You make such an important point--nothing you could have done would have changed your Mom. Billy G. (and plenty of other fundie gurus) puts all the responsibility on the least powerful person in a relationship. Having drunk that Kool-Aid all my life, I remember being 19 or 20 and reading a Max Lucado book that basically said if you hug a cactus you will get pricked; a jerk will be a jerk still regardless of your behavior.

    It was a freeing moment--I'm still trying to live in that freedom that I'm not responsible for others' actions.

    Warmest hugs to you!

  4. Aw, thanks Naomi! *hugs back*

  5. Whew, finally got over here Shadow.

    Heart breaking. Just heart breaking.

    And even still today the church is willfully ignorant about brain and personality disorders.

  6. Wow! My heart goes out to you. Bravo to you for telling your story. I hope that it helps you to sort things out in your own healing. I offer you gentle cyber hugs if you want them.

  7. (((((hugs)))))

    NPD just sucks. SUCKS. I'm convinced it is what my husband has, along with other things, and the thing about it that is so frustrating is how GOOD it always looks on the outside. Looking good to the outside world is his most prized possession...and yet *I* know the truth, the freaky twisted horrible truth...but how in the world can you explain it to someone who has never had to deal with an NPD person? It is so incredibly frustrating. Because people can't believe that someone would actually THINK the way an NPD person thinks. I know that I didn't...I kept trying to find explanations for his behavior for so long, because I literally couldn't imagine he could really actually be that cunning and manipulative on PURPOSE.

    I can't imagine how hard it would have been to grow up with an NPD mother. Ugh.

  8. "How can you explain it to someone who has never had to deal with an NPD person?"

    You and I both know we can't. The NPD spends so much time and effort looking good to outsiders. No one will ever believe us, except other survivors of NPD households.

    Like the counselor I tried talking to once about my mom. I described a few incidents and he boldly and calmly said, "Now then, that can't be true. I've met your mother and she seems like a very nice person. She can't be THAT bad..."

    I'm really surprised that I didn't commit suicide. =( Actually, my party friends kept me going as a teen. As messed up as that is, I wouldn't be here today without their love and acceptance.

    Personally, I think NPD and other personality disorders are attracted to QF/fundamentalism because it gives them spiritual permission to dominate and abuse. That's what my mom was getting out of it.

    So escapees from ATI families and other survivors of fundamentalist cults might benefit from some of the literature out there about NPD. My favorite is still "Children of the Self-Absorbed".

  9. Your mom sounds so cruel. I'm sorry for everything you and your twin sister went through.

  10. Thanks for the compassion Guinevere. It helps. =)

  11. Update: Here it is November again. My oldest sister, the one I was speaking with last year at this time, telling her about the elders ceremony and our being "removed from the camp" i.e. kicked out to homelessness, is now estranged from me again. She hasn't spoken to me since this time last year, where she was weirdly combative about this subject when she told me that my little sister had never heard of this happening either.

    It's so tragic, how abusers keep families fragmented and turned against one another.

    I was only reconciled to this sister for two years. She came to me and apologized for not believing me as a teen/child and asked to be real sisters for the first time. I readily (if cautiously) agreed. For those two years we shared holidays, phone calls and overnight visits. I was so happy to have her as a sister for the first time.

    But exposing mom's secret tribunal against my twin and I (I didn't even know it WAS a secret!) changed it all. She went out to visit my mom and little sister and came back fully entrenched in the family system I myself left behind.

    Being a scapegoat, in the end, is way better than being one of the enmeshed offspring. I would rather live in truth with real love, than embrace deception for a conditional approval that is not by any means guaranteed to last.

    After all, my sister has to stay in relationship with an NPD mother, and I got to go free! =)

  12. I just feel like apologizing on behalf of all of us who call ourselves Christians. I feel torn for your family and the hurt caused by "religion". People make their own choices, and some will never change regardless of what we do. As far as Bill Gothard is concerned; most of his teaching is legit. There is some stuff I disagree with, but the principles he bases his stuff on are from scripture. Where he takes them, is where people begin to scratch their heads. The reason he has "failed" for so many, is because they have placed their last bit of faith in doing all the things that Gothard says, and when they don't work, faith goes out the window. Going through the motions and following formulas works sometimes. There are times such as your case where God chooses to lead you through rather than bring you out. Gothard didn't ruin your family, your disfunctional mom and her "religious" people did. They misinterpreted what Gothard said, and they are the true hypocrites. I feel like I should apologize that there was no one around to be Jesus to you, to love you like He would have, and to take you in and tell you it would be ok, and that God has a plan for your life. Not that they would simply say or do that either, but that they would prove to you the love of Jesus, and not some religious hocus pocus. This shames me of my fellow believers in Christ that we do not properly show the love of Jesus. To the rest of you out there; be Jesus! Show the world that He loves us as we are, and earning and deserving His love is not something we can do. It is his free gift to us, and for all the pain and suffering here on earth, we will experience exponential blessing from God in heaven.

  13. I strongly disagree Josiah, that Bill Gothard's teaching is in any way "legit". Not at all!!!

    I know friends who worked for Gothard's organization, and the only difference between Gothard and my mom is a religious empire.

    His principles- that if you do A then B will result- are proof-texted from the Bible, yes. In that way you can find them in the Bible. For example, what a man sows, that he also reaps. Or in Oklahoma bar parlance, what goes around comes around. Or in my son's lingo, karma can be a bitch!

    You see, all three generalizations are saying the same thing, but one is "Biblical". That's about how useful Gothard's so-called principles are. Mostly true, but not the absolutes he presents them to be. And he does present them as absolutes!

    You can have a pure heart and do everything right and still be abused. The teaching that a person has any control whatsoever over the behavior of their abuser only perpetuates abuse. Gothard teaches this in his Basic Youth Conflict seminar. I was there, remember?

    *I* was the one putting Gothard's words into practice, and they DO NO GOOD. They do no good because they are a twisted teaching. I did not misinterpret what he said. He promised that if I served the Lord with all my heart, honored my mom no matter what she said or did, loved and prayed for her, that God would change my mom. THAT WAS A LIE!

    I do not share Gothard's views about God micro-managing all of life into a reward/punishment system either, which is exactly what he teaches. See Greg Boyd's God of Possibilities for a Biblical view of life that fits much better with scripture as written and reality as experienced by us all.

    I feel for you Josiah David. There is a world of hurt waiting for you if you continue to follow Gothard.

    You do have this in your favor, though: you are compassionate and you seem to understand that the COMMAND of Jesus was to love like He loved. May the Spirit of Truth lead and guide you into all truth, and turn you away from following any but the Good Shepherd Himself.

    Peace and good will, SS

  14. Shadowspring,
    I understand what you are saying. I too have friends and family who work for Gothard, and I can tell you that he has his fallacies, because, wait for it.......he is human. I will never legitimize any kind of "religous empire" or organization that bases happiness and salvation on works, steps, and a+b=c. Religious fanaticism is what flew planes into American buildings 9 years ago!! Neither am I saying that you did anything wrong in trying to apply what you learned at the seminar.

    I have had the blessing of being raised in a God-fearing family, so the principals we learned from him were incorporated as a family, yet I do not make all of his convictions my own. It sucks big time that you did not have that kind of upbringing, or the love that everyone should have. But you cannot truly believe that Gothard is out there to cause pain and suffering through maligned teaching. His whole ministry is directed to help youth and to shine the Light.

    Unfortunately, like you said, he does present these principals as absolutes, and because of that, you were turned off when applying them as such didn't work. Think of it this way. Say a product comes out that is guaranteed to help people lose weight. This product is carried all over the world and greatly advertised over anything else out there. But, it doesn't work for you, or your friends and half of the population out there. It may have worked for the people it was tested on, and been a legitimate product. However people are different, and respond to everything differently. Just as your mom responded negatively to your efforts to implement Gothard's teachings, other people experienced healing of relationships and restoration. When Bill Gothard said that if you would do these things, that it would heal your relationship, he obviously had some proof that it would work. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. Obviously, it didn't work for you or for a lot of people here on this blog, but he wasn't out there to mislead a lot of people and wreak pain in homes across America. Here's the bottom line. When we base spiritual success on "works", we set ourselves up for failure. It may work for some, but it obviously doesn't work for all.

    The only thing in this world that is ablsolute and that "works" for everybody is the Word of God and the principles therein; if they are willing to accept it. "Trying" Jesus never works. Jumping headfirst into His love and embracing it is what will change lives. Know Jesus, know peace. No Jesus, no peace.

    Jesus loves you.


  15. I still strongly disagree with you. Bill Gothard is not in ministry to help people. Far from it. Bill Gothard is in ministry to get rich and feed his giant narcissistic ego. He uses people.

    The hierarchical spiritual power structures he promotes are intrinsically abusive. He is totally in business for himself, his own ego and wealth. The fact that his teachings destroy people is no concern of his.

    He does mislead people and his teachings do wreak pain in households across America. The man has never been married nor does he have any children (that he acknowledges or is publicly known anyway), so there is NO WAY he can claim that his "principles" work. He merely spouts opinions and proof-texts them with scripture lifted out of contest for support.

    Jesus and Bill Gothard are mutually exclusive beings. Knowing Jesus is not at all dependent on accepting Bill Gothard or any of his ridiculous rules. I suppose your throwing around of long-time evangelical slogans "Know Jesus, know peace" is somehow supposed to legitimize your cult equation of Gothard=Jesus but it falls way short.

    BILL GOTHARD IS A CULT LEADER AND ATI IS HIS CULT. You have obviously been well indoctrinated, Josiah. I suppose the cult is working out pretty well for you, seeing as how you are MALE and all. But it is still a cult, and Bill Gothard is still a cult leader.

    And yes, Jesus does love me!!! He loves me soooo much! And I love Jesus too. He is my Good Shepherd who shares His life, leading, love and friendship with me every day. Jesus was with me long before I even heard of Bill Gothard, in fact it is His gracious work in my life that enabled me to survive.

    Yes, Jesus loves me. And He loves you too.

    But Bill Gothard remains a snake oil salesman who loves no one but himself.

  16. For all other readers, it is obvious Josiah David is still deeply involved in Mr. Gothard's cult. I have heard such people referred to as Gothardites by outsiders. Mr. Gothard has a tiered system (like all cults) that works like this:

    You have to attend the Basic seminar before you can buy any of his materials. His books, etc. are only available at his seminars. They have to be properly explained before the average person could get anything out of them, dontcha know? (i.e. suitably indoctrinated)

    Then AFTER you complete the Basic seminar there are two other levels of seminars you must attend before you can APPLY to his "home school association" aka home school cult. This "association" is called ATI, Advanced Training Institure.

    You might think that with an adjective like "advanced" that Mr. Gothard's educational materials are top notch. Far from it. Mr Gothard's educational materials (only available to members who swear not to pass them on to non-Gathardites but I have seen them) are crap. They take an animal (science?) explain its habitat and behaviors, relate that somehow to the Bible (beavers=hard workers?) and then harp on and on about how important it is to have this godly character trait in your life.

    To be in ATI, I am pretty sure you have a strict set of guidelines to follow, including no TVs or microwaves. You are strongly encouraged to grind your own grain, have all the children possible (not practical, possible) and limit your children's contact with non-ATI families as much as possible. The support groups they encourage are for father's only, so that the father's can keep that iron grip on the family life.

  17. Of course all of this is wrapped up in the Bible, though the great portion of it is pulled out of context to make any particular pet control doctrine Billy-boy wants to make that day.

    When teens have trouble with this highly controlling dysfunctional religious cult life, they are sent off to other ATI families to work for free and/or sent to "intern" (work for free) at Gothard's business ventures. If the family-only atmosphere was not enough to keep the growing adults conformed to the cult behaviors/lifestyle, then outside pressure of the greater cult organization is brought to bear.

    As you read Josiah David's statements, keep all this in mine. Josiah David has not experienced anything near a normal life. He likely only associates with non-ATI people on the most superficial basis. He may possibly work with regular citizens (but it's unlikely) but he will not make close friends with anyone outside the cult.

    Since people swindled into cults are still normal human people, it is likely that along with all this cult craziness there is a good does of family togetherness and love. Since Josiah David was never allowed to know anyone outside the cult, he thinks this love is something that only his cult family has together. He has never seen Jewish or atheist or Hindu or other "worldly" people in loving family relationships so he believes the cult line that this is a special quality of Gothardites.

    Gothardites believe that they are the only real Christians, and that all the rest of us are "lukewarm" at best. This is a huge insult and implies that we are dangerous people, people who might even wind up being rejected by God himself. They base this on a misreading of the early chapters of Revelation, where Jesus warns the church at Laodecia (sp?) of letting their self-satisfied lives make them think they were better spiritually than those "other" people out there- a common malady afflicting Gothardites who are depending on their own godliness (which they feel is way superior to the average Christians) to earn them God's stamp of approval.

    That's why he implies that I have no peace in my life, can't possibly truly know Jesus, blah blah blah. Just thought those reading who may possibly not be well acquainted with Gothard deserved to know more, what with a cult member trolling here now.

    Peace and good will, SS

  18. Two blogs written by adult escapees who grew up ATI:

    I'm sure there are more, but going back to the beginning of these blogs and giving them a read will give one a great view of what it is like growing up a woman in an ATI household. It is a far cry from the gracious love-filled world Jesus calls us to live in his great command, "love one another as I have loved you".

  19. I also as a young husband christian attended Bill Gothard seminor's. I was so exicted over my newly found Lord and Savior! I wanted to serve Him and to be pleasing to Him. I came away from Gothard' teaching feeling oppressed while everyone around me were refreshed and excited at his teaching. It left me bewildered and drained. I tried to live Gothard's teaching' and failed miserably. As a result i fell into deep depression and sin.My christian friend's who thrived with the teaching of Gothard rebuked me..when they came to my house they continually pointed thing's out.i felt very condemned and unworthy. I also thought of sucide a i beleived i lost my salvation and was hopeless. But Jesus Christ is FAITHFUL even when we are not!And continued to work in my life and i can now say and beleive 'that for by grace am i saved through faith in Christ Jesus..not of works lest any man should is a gift of God. What God finally got through to me is to live a holy life means a looking unto Him..continually and simply taking Him at His word and His promises.One thing i noticed about those who went on with Bill Gothard is there is a spiritural pride and's as if they are clothed in this and i don't see Christ but see this 'clothing'.Gothard's defination of grace is very is not biblical grace but a grace that one 'earn's. And his defination of faith is also is NOT visualizing what God intends to do with us (this is a occultic techique) faith is again simply taking God at His word. I am wondering if Gothard is into the new world order. I know he is in the ecumenical movement which is bringing in a one world religion. Is he using his platform to help this along? I just don't know but the thing's he is involved in like reading the bible to unborn children is a dangerous would be a form of brain washing. And the fact that he states one can be without Christ and still profit from his teaching is heretical. He has taken his teaching's as methods to be this and that. It is not principles that make us holy it is the Holy spirit that conforms us to the image of Jesus according to God's word's. Jesus said in the last days there will be serious deception that if possible even the very elect could be decieved. I think we are in those last days where great deception has crept into our churches to the point we may have to start gathering in homes in small groups. And throw out all the so called 'christian books in how to live for Christ regardless of how good they seem and stick with the bible only.

  20. Shadowspring, are you aware of May we have permission to include your story on the website?

    Thank you for sharing. -Jay